Siman - Succah Daf 11

  • Question if קציצתן זו היא עשייתן and its application to tzitzis

The next Mishnah states: הדלה עליה את הגפן ואת הדלעת ואת הקיסוס וסיכך על גבה פסולה – If one lifted on to the succah, a grapevine, or a gourd, or ivy, and covered it with valid s’chach, the succah is passul. ואם היה סיכוך הרבה מהן או שקצצן כשרה – But if there was more valid s’chach than them, or if he detached the vines from the ground, the succah is kosher. Rav Yosef said that Rav holds that after one detached the vines, צריך לנענע – he still must shake them, meaning lift them up and put them back down again, to make the succah kosher. This is based on the Torah’s command of "הסכת תעשה" – תעשה ולא מן העשוי – You shall make succos, meaning you shall make, and not use that which was made when it was passul. Rav Huna said to Rav Yosef that Shmuel was the one who held this ruling, and that Rav held that just cutting the vines would validate the succah, for once there was a case when one placed tzitzis on his family’s cloak but hung and knotted them without first severing their tips, so that the tzitzis were made in an invalid manner. He was told in the name of Rav, מפסקן והן כשרין – sever the tips and they are valid. אלמא פסיקתן זו היא עשייתן – We see from here that Rav maintains that severing is their making. So too regarding their vines, קציצתן זו היא עשייתן – detaching is their making. The Gemara brings a Baraisa that refutes Rav’s opinion and rules that these tzitzis would be passul.

  • Does the machlokes of קציצתן זו היא עשייתן apply to cutting off berries from hadasim?

The Gemara suggests that there is a machlokes Tannaim whether cutting an object represents an act of “making”, in the case of one who plucked the berries off hadasim because they outnumbered its leaves and made it passul. If one did this on Yom Tov, Rebbe Shimon ben Yehotzadak says that the hadasim are passul, and the Chochomim say that they are kosher. Now it was assumed that they agree that לולב צריך אגד – a lulav requires bundling of the dalet minim together, and that the mitzvah of lulav is learned from the halachos of succah, and requires תעשה ולא מן העשוי, and therefore a lulav must be valid at the time that it is bound. Therefore, the machlokes is between the Chochomim, who hold that with regard to a lulav לקיטתן זו היא עשייתן – plucking the berries is their “making,” and Rebbe Shimon ben Yehotzadak holds that plucking is not considered a “making.” The Gemara deflects this pshat and says that their machlokes is whether lulav is learned from succah and requires תעשה ולא מן העשוי. According to the Chochomim, it is not learnt from succah, and therefore, even though the mitzvah of lulav requires איגוד, the dalet minim do not need to be kosher at the time of bundling. Rebbe Shimon ben Yehotzadak holds that lulav does require תעשה ולא מן העשוי and therefore the dalet minim do need to be kosher at the time of bundling. The Gemara brings an alternative answer as well.

  • The sources for וכל דבר שאינו מקבל טומאה וגידולו מן הארץ מסככין בו

The Mishnah stated: זה הכלל כל שהוא מקבל טומאה ואין גידולו מן הארץ אין מסככין בו – This is the rule: We may not use as s’chach, whatever is mekabel tumah and whatever does not grow from the ground. The Gemara asks for the source for this ruling, and Reish Lakish, who holds that we dwell in succos to remind us of the ענני הכבוד, says that the passuk states, "ואד יעלה מן הארץ" – And a mist ascended from the earth. We learn from this, that just as mist (i.e. a cloud) is a דבר שאינו מקבל טומאה וגידולו מן הארץ, so too the s’chach of a succah (which is meant to remind us of clouds) must be דבר שאינו מקבל טומאה וגידולו מן הארץ. The Gemara notes that this source is sufficient for Rebbe Eliezer, who holds ענני כבוד היו, but what would be the source for Rebbe Akiva, who holds סוכות ממש עשו להם – the Jews made for themselves actual succos? On Daf 12a Ravin says in the name of Rebbe Yochanan that the passuk states, "באספך מגרנך ומיקבך" – with your gathering from your threshing floor and from your wine vat. בפסולת גורן ויקב הכתוב מדבר Here, when alluding to the succah, the Torah speaks of their refuse, which are not mekabel  tumah and grow from the ground.