Part 2: Rav Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger - Amsterdam

The following transcription comes from a lecture given in Amsterdam.

Now, one more thing … although it is a very long parsha (topic), and that is the one hour [between meat and dairy] of the Dutch. There are so many persecutions around this! People look at you as if you are Reformed Jews, or worse…I don’t know. Shmatta yidden, rachmana litzlan. We can talk about it for hours. In fact, we know, the whole thing of the six hours [wait time between meat and dairy] which has become ever so dominant in our lives in our time, outside of Amsterdam, and I imagine also inside Amsterdam…

Where do we [find] the first trace of the six hours? Can anybody tell me, who is the first Jewish scholar who speaks of six hours? No one knows. The Nodeh B’Yehuda knew. He said, this was the Rambam. Before the Rambam, no one knew of six hours, no one spoke of six hours.

I’ll ask you a further question. Who was the first person to tell us that we must wait between basar b’chalav? לֹא-תְבַשֵּׁל גְּדִי, בַּחֲלֵב אִמּוֹ is an issur bishul (proscription from cooking meat and milk together). Chazal also say it is an issur achila (proscription from eating meat and milk together). But [the requirement to have] a separation of time [between the two] - who is the first one to speak about it? Who was the first gentleman? Many point out that you [will not find] a tanna, a braisa… you find the first mention in Bavel (Babylonia) in the times of the Amoraim, and this is the story of Mar Ukva. Mar Ukva tells us, “I am not such a saintly man like my father. My father, when he ate meat at one time, he wouldn’t eat [an item with milk] till 24 hours later. I am a weakling.” He was a great man - he was Mar Ukva! Mar Ukva tells us, “if I eat [meat] at this seudah (meal), in the same seudah I will not eat it [dairy]. In another seudah, I will eat it.” That’s all we know. There’s no six hours.

All the Rishonim come… [and give interpretations]. It’s a very chashuv shita (prominent opinion) of the Rambam, and there are other shitos that are close to it, but they do not say six hours, which means that m’seudah l’seudah refers to different hours in different times of meals (i.e., the time frame of seudah l’seudah changes in different locales).

Many people who are very strong about Rabainu Tam tefillin and rely on Rabainu Tam, are not so strong about Rabainu Tam when it comes to achilas basar b’chalav (i.e. his opinion regarding eating meat and milk). Rabainu Tam was one of the strong fighters for the privilege of continuing the old masorah (tradition) - which some people claim, is that Mar Ukva was only speaking about himself. If he wants to wait m’seudah l’seudah, he is a groisa tzaddik (very righteous individual)... what does that have to do with me?

There are others who claim that it is a Babylonic chumra (stringency). In Eretz Yisrael, it never existed. Whoever knows the history of Ashkenaz Jews [knows that] we stem from Eretz Yisrael, not from Bavel. We never had such a difference of [wait] time. Such a thing never existed. But, Rabainu Tam claims, not only that, but also the Behag, who was definitely Bablylonian, writes that the whole thing of separation which Mar Ukva was makpid on (particular about) between one seudah to another, is only in a case where he didn’t rinse out his mouth. [But if he did], through the process of kinuach v’hadacha - he eats a piece of berches, a piece of challah, or bread, and then he rinses out his mouth with a drink - if he doesn’t have that, then in order to have his mouth reasonably clean, he has to make a separation of time which is m’seudah l’seudah. This is Rabainu Tam’s shita.

Many Rishonim have suggested that one should at least keep one hour. One hour is a chumra. After an hour, you can be sure that your mouth is clean. We know that the greatest of the greatest followed this. For example, we know that the Yosef Ometz brings down that they all used to have meals, it was a habit in those years, the Rama himself brings down one hour - it was the habit to have a big meal, let’s say at a chasuna (wedding), and after the fleishig (meat) meal, they would wait around a bit, and then they would bring a cheese meal. In Amsterdam, I understand what the big yetzer hara is for eating cheese…I don’t know what they had in Germany, but…the Amsterdam cheese has something of an international reputation, so it was worth it for them to wait an hour to then eat the cheese. The Rabbanan had big tainas (complaints) on this, because if it is in one meal …(undecipherable)... and so they stopped it. However, otherwise, for example, Rav Chaim m’Friedburg, who is the brother of the Maharal, and a chavrusa (study partner) of the Rama by Rav Shalom Shachna in Lublin, he said, “I myself would not join such meals. Otherwise, I would eat [milk] after one hour, it is no problem. But not within the same meal.” So we see that this was a [practice which was followed].

Now I want to tell you, I am not Dutch enough to have the privilege of waiting one hour. I wait three hours because this is what my ancestors did [2]. One of our friends once wrote an article in the first volume of Yerushaseinu, which is one of our publications that has been started in Eretz Yisrael in recent years. It is a yearbook on Ashkenaz topics; historical, halachic, and everything you can think of. He wrote an article to explain why German Jews wait three hours. He brought down the facts that Rav Shach told our people that if our avos (fathers) did it, [then we should as well], as he said to one of my friends, “Tell me, is your father an erhliche yid? How long does he wait between meat and milk?” “Three hours.” “Then you also wait three hours…as you learned from your father.”

Furthermore, Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurebach, who was a posek, not just a daas torah, he was asked by another one of my friends, who said to him, “I am from America, my father is a Yekke from Germany, and we wait three hours. I want to know if here in Eretz Yisrael I need to wait six hours. What am I supposed to do?” Rav Aurebach answered him, “What klal yisrael has done for many generations is minhag yisrael. This is your minhag - keep the minhag.” He added [another point]: it is better not to make a neder than to make a neder and not keep it. Some people take upon themselves the chumra of waiting six hours, especially concerning women in the kitchen, and they are involved in feeding the children and forget that it is within the six hours. They come to eat dairy dishes during the six hours when they took upon themselves a neder not to do it! Better not to take this on then to get into this problem.

But, there were some kanaim (zealots) who do not like that the Yekkes have a kula - we have plenty of chumros - but we also have this kula. Some kanaim came to the distributor [of Yerushaseinu] and told him that this sefer has kefirah (blasphemy). So said Rav Elyashiv. So we went to Rav Elyashiv’s talmidim, and they told us that no such thing occurred. Rav Elyashiv once gave a shiur, and in that shiur he said that as long as one lives in Holland, or in Germany, where the minhag hamakom is not to wait six hours, then it is perfectly okay. But, when in Eretz Yisrael, due to minhag hamakom, one should wait six hours. This is due to minhag hamakom! But, we asked, what happens if you have a community that has its own minhagim? He responded that this is okay. He was not against three hours - he had a shita regarding minhag hamakom! He was not against three hours or one hour.

But, what happened to us? We never got our books or money back, and we are in trouble. Baruch HaShem, we managed to publish a second volume. If any of you has an article to contribute about Dutch minhagim or history, we would be happy to publish it - even in Dutch! We also have a non-Hebrew section of the book. Please join us, and we will b’ezras HaShem be zoche to strengthen all of us together - ish lirai’ahu ya’azoru ulachiv yomar chazak - that we should fulfill the desire of HaShem, and our redeemer will come speedily in our days - amen v’amen!

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[2]. This author heard an individual ask Rav Hamburger about their German family minhag which is to wait four hours between meat and milk. Rav Hamburger replied that while this practice is rare, it does exist among certain families, should be kept, and is just another interpretation of m’seudah l’seudah. See Pri Chadash, YD 89:6 who explicitly mentions waiting four hours in the context of m’seudah l’seudah. This Pri Chadash will be quoted in Part 5.